Curse

hidden_agenda · Dec 06, 2005, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Most of the suggestions here are along the line of more / better technical items (having better AI, auction house, etc.) and game system issues (improve skill XXX in this fashion).

Perhaps it already has been mentioned, but I, for one, would LOVE to see more interesting story / plotline in GW, closely interwoven into the game-play.

All of these are PvE suggestions and they are geared around:
---> having the players AFFECT the way the game is played based on past choices is a GOOD thing.
---> having a more immersive environment is a GOOD thing
---> replay-ability is a GREAT thing

My suggestions:

1. more tying multiple quests together with hidden flags to create story sub-arcs...

To a degree, this is already being done -- such as the attribute quest from Vanyi in Droknar's Forge or the Althea's Ghost and Ashes quests. However, what is lacking is better story arcs. For example: wouldn't it be interesting if back in the beginning of the story, in the Ruins of Ascalon, you were tasked to look for Vanyi and find out what happened to her and her father?

Then, during your travel through Northern Shiverpeaks, you might have come across some intriguing hints of her whereabouts.

Finally, you encountered her and the Mraaga demon in the later portion of the game. This would make a far more interesting sub-arc IMHO...

It also creates alot more continuity in the game. Instead of very episodic and choppy...

Also, the flags that are results of a quest should not be just "Completed vs. not Completed". Quest might have different results... A rescue mission might end up having the hostage killed. A retrieval mission might end up getting the wrong item. These will, in turn, generate a different effect later...

2. create more memorable characters and UTILIZE them

GW already has some interesting characters (Rurik) and memorable ones (Cynn, Devona, and Gwen). What the game lacks is interesting interactions with the characters and the ability to affect the character development through play.

Some examples of this:
A. You might have to complete a series of linked quest before you can get a particular henchman. if no one in the party has completed the quest, then the henchman won't join your party. So, to take the example from above -- Vanyi might be a henchie -- but unless you actually completed the quest and freed her, she won't join you.

Think about it -- there will likely be an assassin henchie in Chapter 2. Well, unless you befriend / aid her in a mission of some sort, she won't join you...

B. Depending on your completion of a certain character quests, the henchie might have different skill sets. For example, at one point, Lina (the protector monk) might have a quest to reach a hidden temple to Dwayna (you have to assemble a party with her in it). If you complete the quest, then everytime you use her as a henchie, she might have a special Elite protection prayer.

C. The henchies might take on different secondary professions base on their development in your story line. For example, if you took Lina into a nasty undead temple and uncovered a evil artifact. You have the option of giving the artifact to her. If this happens, then Lina might actually be Mo/N instead of a pure monk protector.

[Slightly off-topic technical item: For multiple human players, I suggest a vote based scheme --> i.e. you aggregate the quest results among the human players in the party. Majority wins out, with a default tie breaking scheme. It would also make sense to have a brief pop-up of a henchie's skills when the human players get one for the party, so one knows exactly what kind of henchie one is getting.]

3. Finally, have some sort of conversation tree that ties into the story arc / quests and the past actions of the players.

Even a few branches will make a huge improvement to the current "same story to everyone" approach better. If I am a healing monk and I just finished the quest to help some orphans. Then I might get one set of reaction from Alisia. In contrast, if I am a death necro who has just completed some quest involving digging up someone's grave then I should get a different reaction and different quest options from Alisia.

4. Miscellaneous:

---> playing a certain series of difficult quests and completing them in the right way gives you a +10% benefit when selling to the normal merchant.

---> playing a certain series of quest involving a dye merchant gives you access to a little panel that enable you to examine your dye mixture BEFORE you actually mix them.

etc. etc. The point is to TIE the gameplay to the story, so that we, as the players, feel INVOLVED.

Now, clearly, all of these suggestions will take some effort from Anet. But I think they are certainly feasible technically and there are BIG pay-offs:

----> even if you finished the game as a wa/mo, there is now a huge value for you to play the game again as a new wa/mo AGAIN. WHY? because you can go through the quests with different results, even different henchmens.

----> your action in game now matters. it is no longer the case when everything is just simplistic and black-and-white. you might have to think before you decide to do a quest a particular way.

----> yes, i understand that the main arc might have to remain the same (since cut-scenes and such are difficult to have multiples of). HOWEVER, there is no reason that the little quests cannot be more tied together with more slants toward character development of the NPCs.

Comments, criticisms? Am I just dreaming?

actionjack · Dec 07, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Aww.. you beat me to it... I was going to write up something about henchmes too (much like what you described here), but you took the spot...

But in all case, much agree on. I would want GW PvE to go more in the orientation of "Single Player RPG that you can play online". thus more content with exploration area and NPC. However, there is always a questions of how, if the world is peronalize for you, what would the other player fits? If your Lina is a Mo/N, and my is a Mo/W, and we party, what would happen? If you burn down that village, but I save the village, whos story is correct? Would like to hear your possible solution to that.

" A Player's Journal In New Land "

Retribution X · Dec 07, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

lol, take lina into a warrior land... then she goes invinci

yeah, this isn't a bad idea! /Signed

hidden_agenda · Dec 07, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

APOLOGY TO THE MODS: I accidentally started two threads on the same thing...

for some reason my login-cookie expired, and when i started this thread, i got a logged out reply from the site. i swore, then re-wrote the entire post (yikes!) as a separate thread... ;p

the separate thread is a bit more coherent... and can be found here...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=89573

PieXags · Dec 07, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

It happens. Other thread deleted, as it had no replies.

Lasareth · Dec 07, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

For reference, the deleted thread, since it appears to have a variation in wording: (Skip if you don't want to read it, and sorry for my spam)

Quote:

Now most of the suggestions in this board has been along the line of technical improvements (enhance henchmen AI, fix this skill, etc.)

However, I have a somewhat different suggestions (mayhaps others have thought of it, but I haven't read about it). In short I suggest that Anet ties the game closer to the stories, create more open ended gameplay, and put in some more character development for the NPCs.

What follows is a long list of suggestions and examples that I've thought up... Most of the items on the list should be fairly simple to do, technically (I am a programmer myself). But, if done well, could have a great impact on gameplay...

1. Create more quests that tie together at different points in the game...

This is already done to a small degree by the Althea quests and the Vanyi quests (better known as the second attribute point quest). However, the gameplay can be greatly enhanced.

For example, imagine in the Ruins of Ascalon, you found an old crone -- Vanyi's cousin, who task you to find out what happened to her cousin years ago, when they traveled into the Shiverpeaks.

Later on, in northern Shiverpeaks, you ran across the ancient remains of an ambush, indicating that Vanyi is dead.

Then, even later, you bump into Vanyi, who is (to your surprise) a young woman. And you have the current quests.

Now, there is suddenly a beginning, middle, and end of a story to an NPC. It also feels like you are actually traveling through Tyria and discovering things about the people there.

2. Create quests that have multiple endings and store these endings on a character by character basis.

For example, take the simple quest of "The Troublesome Artifact" where you're suppose to deliver a Krytan magic item to the priestess in the Serenity Temple. Now, what if you talked to another NPC and he requests that instead of delivering the item to the priestess, you deliver it to a disciple of Verata (a bigname necromancer).

Well, you now have a choice. And the result of your choice is stored (secretly) as part of your character. Later on, another quest / story-line may arise or be hidden depending on which choice you made. (more on this later)...

3. Create memorable characters and UTILIZE them...

GW has already created memorable characters -- Devona, Rurik, etc. What is lacking, however, is a decent amount of interactions utilizing these characters.

To make use of memorable characters, I recommend that:
A) certain NPCs are only available as henchies if you (or some human player in your party) completed a certain series of quests.
B) there is a way to view the skillset of a henchie when you add him / her to your party (see below for why...)
C) Henchies would have secondary professions / elites that vary depending on past quest results

Going further with the example from part 2: now you are later in the game, and you bump into Lina the Protector Monk. She is not available as a henchie yet, but she has a quest -- aid her in recovering an artifact. It is, in fact, the Krytan magic item from before. Except the quest differs from whom you gave it too -- if you gave it to the priestess, maybe the Charr stole it, and you have to fight the Charr. If you gave it to the necro, you might have to recover it from an undead shrine.

Completing this quest means that Lina becomes available as a henchman. HOWEVER, depending on your choice, she might be tainted with necromantic energy from the artifact and be a Mo/N OR a pure Mo with a protection ELITE skill.

{Aside: In the case of multiple human players in a party, there needs to be a way to resolve the choices (a simple majority with tie-breaker would probably suffice...) }

Now, take the example from Part 1: You have just saved Vanyi from the Mraaga demon. Suddenly, she is now available as an alternate warrior henchwoman -- who is a W/R instead of a pure warrior like the other warriors.

AT ONE STROKE YOU HAVE: the background story of a character, why she is where she is, and why is she traveling with you.

WHY BOTHER DOING THIS?

To be honest, GW is my first mmorpg. However, I have played many other computer RPGs. The great contrast that struck me in GW is that it is less immersive than the best of the single player RPGs -- the entire game feels very episodic and choppy. In comparison with games like Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1&2, Planescape:Torment, and Star Wars: KOTOR, the immersiveness / plot of GW is fairly weak.

What motivates me to write all of the above, however, is that recently, at the Riverside Inn board, there were some questions about the future direction of chapter 2. I believe that there is a valid point in asking: how, if the level, skills, armor, and weapons are all well-balanced, would there be improvement in chapter 2? After all, there can't suddenly be a 28-35 dmg sword -- that would unbalance the game. Neither can there suddenly be a AL 160 armor.

Then it occurred to me that an immersive, open-ended story can be its own reward.

It is also something that is lacking in the current GW which can be improved easily (I think). An assasin henchmen in chapter 2 could have a series of quests that introduce and develops him / her as part of the story. Old characters introduced in chapter 1 could be revisited and developed.

Replay value could also be greatly increased via an open-ended story because even if you played the game twice as a W/Mo, it would be a completely different experience. In the first play, you might have made choices that alienated Devona, and ultimately made her an enemy. In the second play, she might be as she is now, a faithful hammer-wielding companion that fights by your side.

Anyways, I very much like the skill system in GW as well as the design effort Anet placed into the game. I think both the graphic engine and the game engine are very well-done. What it lacks is a set of story and quests that bind us, the players, to the world emotionally. It is something that I wish someday to see.

hidden_agenda · Dec 07, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

whoa? no flames on my crazy idea? no one really feels as i do?

or maybe i wrote a bit too much... (yikes)...

benmanhaha · Dec 08, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

whoa? no flames on my crazy idea? no one really feels as i do?

or maybe i wrote a bit too much... (yikes)...

Isnt it a great feeling when you suggest something and no one flames?
But any way i like this idea. I feel alot is lacking from GW and this is one thing that would make it better for me.

/signed

Crystaldragonboy · Dec 08, 2005, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I agree wholeheartedly! Nobody (myself included) really pays attention to the quests they're accepting anymore. It's like, "who cares, I get a direction on the map anyway." It's just not involving enough. Maybe a few event-missions that actually change the face of Tyria from time to time could help a little.

I like all the suggestions, but some would create a few too many headaches to be worth it. For instance, Henchie secondary professions (as described) would just create problems with parties (for already stated reasons).

I like the idea of multiple outcomes for missions the best. Did it or didn't is kinda' too simple. You just run through the game and get sorta' bored PvEing after the first round. Multiple outcomes would add some replay value.

Lampshade · Dec 08, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I'm sorry I cant add anything to this, I'm a PvPP guy.

my idea of PvE is the Unworthy

hidden_agenda · Dec 08, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmanhaha

Isnt it a great feeling when you suggest something and no one flames?
But any way i like this idea. I feel alot is lacking from GW and this is one thing that would make it better for me.

/signed

it is, indeed, refreshing...

on the other hand, hearing very little from other gamers does make one crestfallen (especially if one spent an hour writing the big rambling post above, TWICE!).

anyways, thanks to all of you who posted.

if anyone here has played Star Wars: KOTOR, the basic idea on henchmen and quests is derived from there:

by completing certain quests and making certain choices, you affect the way certain NPCs turn out. from the massive amount of comments that people have written on the bioware board, it is clearly one of the best ways to immerse people in a story...

Undivine · Dec 08, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Absolutely, positively /signed.

It be like a different game. It would have to be done exclusively through quests though, because only quests are truely "individual." The missions would have to remain static. Quests that involve the henchmen is especially interesting not only because it makes them less "mechanical," but also because with a variety of such exclusive quests, people will have a harder time finding a group for them anyway.

I always thought it was odd that the entire Ascalon section was so disjointed from the rest of the game. You have a plot there, and when you leave, nothing ever comes of it. Ascalon may as well be dead to you. What happened to the king? What happened with the Charr? Perhaps they're holding back some story for Chapter 2, but I don't think they should hold it all back, because it really dampens Chapter 1.

*SPOILER WARNING*

Also, I think the plot should be a bit... well a little better frankly. In movies, books, TV shows, and video games I have always seen betrayal as a cheap trick in most cases. Sometimes it's done with great effect and the "why" of the betrayal genuinly creates interest. Most of the time it's just thrown in for the surprise. This game has 3 of them. The White Mantle betray you (or rather, you them), Markis betrays you, Vizier Kilbron betrays you. That last one I kinda saw coming, and even if I didn't I would have reacted the same way; with a groan. All of these were thrown in just so they could change the scenery and change of enemy models. Surely they could come up with better excuses, and surely a better plot.

actionjack · Dec 08, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

No answer to my posted question? (^ see abouve)

also how about the option to give/buy your hench equipments? (like armor and weapons).

hidden_agenda · Dec 09, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

No answer to my posted question? (^ see abouve)

also how about the option to give/buy your hench equipments? (like armor and weapons).

well, there are probably multiple possible solution to the henchman issue, here are just a couple:

1) the simplest is simply majority rules with tie-breaker. your hench is mo/me mine is mo/n, one other player is mo/n, mo/n wins. if it's a tie, the game has a built-in default.

Pro: this is simple to implement, Con: the players who are the minority / loser in the tie have a less enjoyable experience.

2) have a choice -- when you select a henchman, have several possible configurations. example, when you click on Lina, you get a mini-skill bar of her as a mo/n and a mo/me and the party leader picks one.

the options available will be based on what the people in the party has done.

To be honest, there really isn't any good solutions to the burnt village (or not) problem. I would say that make some quests open-ended but the solutions are not that different. They should be different enough that it will impact us players and feels different. But, on the other hand, we need to be realistic and realize that in an online game world where people did things differently, it's difficult to have both.

This is why I think having the unlocking of NPCs as hench will be a good one. Similarly with the ability to change the hench. This fit well with the current game model, requires a bit more work, but is certainly not insurmountable should Anet go in this direction. Also, it will have a clear and easy impact for the players.

Think about it, if you managed to get Alesia unlocked with both healing seed and well of blood, wouldn't that feel like an accomplishment?

actionjack · Dec 09, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Here is what I would of done...
For henchman's, divided into two kind, the Story NPC type (will call them hench), and the no story attack type (call them Merc).

The Mercs will pretty much the same as the hench now, who just standing around in town waiting to be call. Should have differnt type of them in each differnt professions combos to choose from, and maybe various from town to town. They won't talk, and just "work". Look better if they have a bit more uniform look, and sit around the gate in some tent and such.

The Hench, will be as described, that have alot of development and story attach. They are located outside the town... in the explore maps (and not in missions). If your party is not full, you can still choice to add them in. In most part, they will be outside the gate, but some might be further in the map before you meet them (depend on what map area). Those are the one that you can feel attach to, with lot more personalities.

So the Merc would be for some group who want a filler. You would group the Hench when you are alone or with few friends. (maybe have the Hench outside won't show when your group is bigger than 4?)

So whoes world view would it be? I would say give it to the Party Leader, who ever first start the group. All the instanize exploration area's event and object will be done according to what the Party leader has done. So if the leader save a village, while one (or all) of other group didn't, if they together in that map, will show the village saved. But when they leave the group and be them self, the village will be to their world view again, which is gone. This apply for the Hench Npc as well.

Not sure how well the technology will be for it, but that would be the system I would go with. Any comments?

Undivine · Dec 09, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I think making different types of henchies is overly complicated. Really, you don't actually need to make Lina a Mo/N or a Mo/W. Quests can still be rich and varied without them needing to be worked out.

Take, for instance, the way the quests are now. If I completed The Villiany of Galrath, but Actionjack hasn't, I can still help Actionjack with the quest. The events that are supposed to occur during the episode will happen for me as well as Actionjack; Galrath will still appear, even though I've killed him already. It's just that I can't get rewarded for the quest.

Making the henchmen variable is overly complicated and could end up confusing players. You could, however, make them say different things when you talk to them.

And keep in mind that if you're going to make the quests so diverse and varied, then you must adapt to the idea that most people doing quests are either using henchmen, or getting friends or guildies to help them with it. After all, everyone will have different quests. How do you make that situation more user-friendly?

Zhou Feng · Apr 18, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

Most of the suggestions here are along the line of more / better technical items (having better AI, auction house, etc.) and game system issues (improve skill XXX in this fashion).

Perhaps it already has been mentioned, but I, for one, would LOVE to see more interesting story / plotline in GW, closely interwoven into the game-play.

All of these are PvE suggestions and they are geared around:
---> having the players AFFECT the way the game is played based on past choices is a GOOD thing.
---> having a more immersive environment is a GOOD thing
---> replay-ability is a GREAT thing

My suggestions:

1. more tying multiple quests together with hidden flags to create story sub-arcs...

To a degree, this is already being done -- such as the attribute quest from Vanyi in Droknar's Forge or the Althea's Ghost and Ashes quests. However, what is lacking is better story arcs. For example: wouldn't it be interesting if back in the beginning of the story, in the Ruins of Ascalon, you were tasked to look for Vanyi and find out what happened to her and her father?

Then, during your travel through Northern Shiverpeaks, you might have come across some intriguing hints of her whereabouts.

Finally, you encountered her and the Mraaga demon in the later portion of the game. This would make a far more interesting sub-arc IMHO...

It also creates alot more continuity in the game. Instead of very episodic and choppy...

Also, the flags that are results of a quest should not be just "Completed vs. not Completed". Quest might have different results... A rescue mission might end up having the hostage killed. A retrieval mission might end up getting the wrong item. These will, in turn, generate a different effect later...

2. create more memorable characters and UTILIZE them

GW already has some interesting characters (Rurik) and memorable ones (Cynn, Devona, and Gwen). What the game lacks is interesting interactions with the characters and the ability to affect the character development through play.

Some examples of this:
A. You might have to complete a series of linked quest before you can get a particular henchman. if no one in the party has completed the quest, then the henchman won't join your party. So, to take the example from above -- Vanyi might be a henchie -- but unless you actually completed the quest and freed her, she won't join you.

Think about it -- there will likely be an assassin henchie in Chapter 2. Well, unless you befriend / aid her in a mission of some sort, she won't join you...

B. Depending on your completion of a certain character quests, the henchie might have different skill sets. For example, at one point, Lina (the protector monk) might have a quest to reach a hidden temple to Dwayna (you have to assemble a party with her in it). If you complete the quest, then everytime you use her as a henchie, she might have a special Elite protection prayer.

C. The henchies might take on different secondary professions base on their development in your story line. For example, if you took Lina into a nasty undead temple and uncovered a evil artifact. You have the option of giving the artifact to her. If this happens, then Lina might actually be Mo/N instead of a pure monk protector.

[Slightly off-topic technical item: For multiple human players, I suggest a vote based scheme --> i.e. you aggregate the quest results among the human players in the party. Majority wins out, with a default tie breaking scheme. It would also make sense to have a brief pop-up of a henchie's skills when the human players get one for the party, so one knows exactly what kind of henchie one is getting.]

3. Finally, have some sort of conversation tree that ties into the story arc / quests and the past actions of the players.

Even a few branches will make a huge improvement to the current "same story to everyone" approach better. If I am a healing monk and I just finished the quest to help some orphans. Then I might get one set of reaction from Alisia. In contrast, if I am a death necro who has just completed some quest involving digging up someone's grave then I should get a different reaction and different quest options from Alisia.

4. Miscellaneous:

---> playing a certain series of difficult quests and completing them in the right way gives you a +10% benefit when selling to the normal merchant.

---> playing a certain series of quest involving a dye merchant gives you access to a little panel that enable you to examine your dye mixture BEFORE you actually mix them.

etc. etc. The point is to TIE the gameplay to the story, so that we, as the players, feel INVOLVED.

Now, clearly, all of these suggestions will take some effort from Anet. But I think they are certainly feasible technically and there are BIG pay-offs:

----> even if you finished the game as a wa/mo, there is now a huge value for you to play the game again as a new wa/mo AGAIN. WHY? because you can go through the quests with different results, even different henchmens.

----> your action in game now matters. it is no longer the case when everything is just simplistic and black-and-white. you might have to think before you decide to do a quest a particular way.

----> yes, i understand that the main arc might have to remain the same (since cut-scenes and such are difficult to have multiples of). HOWEVER, there is no reason that the little quests cannot be more tied together with more slants toward character development of the NPCs.

Comments, criticisms? Am I just dreaming?

Old thread yet exactly what PvE really needs, more dynamic sub story arcs which affect the actual story line. I believe you've hit the nail in what PvE could really use. IF PAST actions from a player affect the next instances of his/her story line (the story line in effect will be the one who is leader at the moment) this would not only make replayability better but also joining PUGS as well! Think about it. If the leader of the group took diffrent options then you did you can see the story line in a diffrent way! Or when he/she plays as you being the leader he/she gets to see a totally diffrent storyline. This suggestion is because it might be a bit hard to implement story sub arc effects due to the actual instance situation but Im pretty sure its possible. This would make storyline more dynamic and people would be willing to replay story because the next time around depending on their actions or who plays with them the story is totally diffrent.

Another suggestion is that for every story change/sub arc action your character gains hidden "flags". So if the majority of players in the PUG/Group/Team have their "flags" up the story changes according to the majority of players "flags".

By having sub arcs as well as options that change what happens later on within the story Im sure the story of GW Phrophecies will be a lot better.